Hello dear readers! I promised three chapters for this week’s post, but chapter 24 was too much of a beast. I needed to break it up, so we’re only covering Chapters 22 and 23 today in Reading The Wheel of Time. They are dark and bloody chapters, enough for anyone really, but we’ll see at the end of today’s recap that it’s not quite enough for the Dragon Reborn.
Chapter 22 opens with Rand’s army standing in the rain as the Asha’man open gateways for them to the Venir Mountains in Altara. Rand has already seized saidin in his tent, where no one could see him be affected by the sickness it brings him every time now. He’s wondering if the sickness and the dizziness are related somehow.
Rand’s allies are concerned about their small numbers—they have only around 6,000 men—and Rand is annoyed that they don’t understand that fifty Asha’man are “as big a hammer as anyone could wish for.” Weiramon in particular doesn’t like that Bashere is in charge. There are also two women, Lady Ailil and High Lady Anaiyella, who are upset at being forced to come with their retainers instead of just sending them where Rand dictates.
They bring up Rand’s reputation as being protective of women, and Rand is so startled that he loses his grip on saidin. He’s horrified that such a rumor has spread, but hides it as best he can, promising to look after the two women, quieting their protests by offering a stay at the Black Tower as an alternative.
Rand order Flinn to join the line of Asha’man opening gateways, because he doesn’t trust himself to be able to deal with the dizziness if he tries to grasp it again himself. He’s so uncomfortable at the looks he gets from some of the other Asha’man that he immediately rides through the first gateway.
On the other side of the gateway Asha’man begin fanning out, jumping through gateways over very short distances as they search for the Seanchan. Bashere catches up with Rand and begins lecturing him about caution, and how death comes to all men but it would be a shame to have it come before Rand’s time. Rand is annoyed and starts to reply, when suddenly he catches sight of an archer emerging from the trees. He seizes saidin, but it makes him so dizzy he sees two archers instead of one. A flock of birds bursts from the undergrowth throwing off the archer’s aim just enough that the arrow misses Rand by a hair.
Fireballs from Gedwyn and Rochaid take out the archer as Rand throws up, losing saidin at the same time. The would-be assasin turns out to be Eagan Padros, and Rochaid finds a purse full of Tar Valon crowns, which convinces him that Padros was hired by the Aes Sedai to kill Rand. Bashere points out that most people have some Tar Valon money on them, himself included. Just then reports of a Seanchan sighting come in, and Rand turns his attention to that, while in his head, Lews Therin asks him if he’s ready to kill now.
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Assid Bakuun, captain in the Seanchan army, is commanding a camp of Tarabon and Seanchan soldiers. He’s concerned about a sickness that has been afflicting the damane, so he goes to the sul’dam’s tents, where he finds several of them lounging about while Nerith braids her damane’s hair.
When Bakuun asks, a sul’dam assures him that the illness, whatever it was, was a small thing and that it has passed. He notes, however, that the damane appears to be trembling, and Bakun doesn’t trust the answer. A message arrives via raken, and Bakuun returns to his tent to learn that a force five or six times the number of his own men has been spotted ten miles east. He can’t figure out how they managed to get so close without being spotted sooner, and although his First Lieutenant is confident that the damane can handle such a number easily, Bakuun worries about Aes Sedai. He decides to pass a message along, even though it will take days for reinforcements to arrive.
Rand rides through the trees, considering the dead and injured. The Asha’man have been doing the majority of the killing, and he’s glad he doesn’t see any women among the bodies that have been ripped apart by saidin.
Do you think the dead are silent? Lews Therin’s laugh was rasping. Do you? His voice turned to pained rage. The dead howl at me!
At me, too, Rand thought sadly. I can’t afford to listen, but how do you shut them up? Lews Therin began weeping for his lost Ilyena.
Weiramon complains about the lack of honor in such a victory while Bashere reports that Aracome has died, despite Flinn’s attempt to Heal him. Rand feels a pang of pity for Min, who had a viewing of Aracome’s death, and hopes what she saw was less horrible than the reality. The men are resting and eating while Flinn, Morr and Hopwil tend to the wounded, as Narishma and Rand can’t Heal more than little cuts, and Dashiva can’t Heal at all.
Near fifty dead, and more to come, but it would have been above two hundred without Flinn and the rest who could manage Healing to one degree or another. Gedwyn and Rochaid had not wanted to dirty their hands and grimaced when Rand drove them to it.
Things have not gone to plan, but Bashere remarks that they won’t make the same mistake twice, and Rand knows that they can’t afford to, unless they want to leave half his men buried in the mountains. He decides to leave the Seanchan prisoners behind when they leave; they don’t have the resources to keep them and the prisoners won’t be able to cause any problems left alone in the woods.
Just then a patrol brings in a captured sul’dam, Nerith, who they claim is angry because they “killed her Gille.” The patrol leader thinks she’s talking about a pet dog or cat or something, but Rand realizes Nerith is talking about her damane. He can feel the name Gille being added to the list in his mind.
Lews Therin moaned for his Ilyena. Her name also was on the list. Rand thought it had a right.
Anaiyella offers to hang the “Seanchan Aes Sedai” for Rand, and Rand is disgusted that she would offer such a thing just to get on his good side. He declares that any captured sul’dam will be sent to the Aes Sedai—and Nerith panics. She screams and tries to escape, and it takes four Saldaeans to pin her to the ground and tie her up. A soldier arrives through a gateway to report another group of Seanchan thirty miles away. Bashere decides there is time to feed the men before they move on.
Furyk Karede, a member of the Deathwatch Guards, leads twenty-three hundred men, gathered from four outposts, towards the mountains. Most of his followers are not Seanchan, however, but Taraboners and Amadicians and Altarans. The latter groups are too new to their oaths for Karede to be sure of them yet, and he has only two damane.
Karede was da’covale and proud of it, like every man of the Guard, the property of the Crystal Throne, body and soul. He fought where the Empress pointed, and would die the day she said die. To the Empress alone did the Guard answer, and where they appeared, they appeared as her hand, a visible reminder of her. No wonder that some among the Blood could become uneasy watching a detachment of Guardsmen pass.
Karede doesn’t understand how the local Altarans have amassed such forces in the mountains, and what has encouraged them to stand together so bravely; his interactions in Ebou Dar have led him to see them as opportunistic people ready to sell their neighbors and even their own queen if it brought them an advantage. Jadranka, the most senior captain after Karede, believes that the forces in the hills are nothing to worry about, and that they haven’t heard any reports because the rest of the Seanchan have already defeated most of them. But Karede knows that it’s defeats that are hushed up, not victories, and thinks that Jadranka is a fool.
His beliefs are confirmed a moment later when he learns that Jadranka ordered the scouts to press ahead and find the enemy. He barely has time to wonder what was missed due to those orders when he starts hearing screams from the men down in the pass. They seem to be exploding as though hit by great crossbow bolts that punch through their bodies, and the ground erupts as well, bringing down hundreds at a time, followed by lightning.
Karede kills Jadranka with a single sword thrust and tells the other captains that they will rally as many as they can and fall back.
Holding saidin, Rand surveys the results of the battle in the valley below, with Flinn and Dashiva beside him. It has been five days since be brought his army to Altara, and for the moment, everything is quiet. Then fire erupts in the valley below, and Rand can tell there is fighting with both saidin and saidar, as well as by ordinary soldiers. Rand finds himself wondering where Lews Therin is, and cursing himself for letting others do the fighting while he sits on the hilltop and watches.
A gateway opens and a Soldier comes though with another captured sul’dam. Rand orders her sent to stay with the other captured sul’dam and damane, and is confused when the Soldier goes back to the same spot his gateway opened to make the new one. When questioned, the man says that saidin feels strange in this area, and that it’s easier to channel where he has already channeled. Rand thinks of madness, and also that the the rumors of saidin behaving strangely seem to be spreading, and sends the Soldier on his way. They have now captured twenty-three sul’dam and two damane.
The first damane, three days before, he had not thought of as a prisoner. A slender woman with pale yellow hair and big blue eyes, she was a Seanchan captive to be freed. He thought. But when he forced a sul’dam to remove the woman’s collar, her a’dam, she screamed for the sul’dam to help her and immediately began lashing out with the Power. She had even offered her neck for the sul’dam to replace the thing! Nine Defenders and a Soldier died before she could be shielded.
There have been many more casualties than Rand expected. Frustrated, he sends Dashiva and Flinn down, despite their protests about leaving him alone. For a while he waits, and it is quiet again—then he suddenly finds himself fighting saidin, the Void evaporating. He releases saidin before it can kill him and finds himself on the ground with an arrow through his arm. The wounds on his side have opened again and he collapses, blood running down his face and into his eyes.
Seanchan horsemen are riding down at him, coming from the north where Weiramon is supposed to be guarding. Rand can’t grasp saidin, and he hears Lews Therin tell him it is time to die before a group of Tairens and Cairhien horsemen plow into the advancing Seanchan, Anaiyella urging them on. Ailil comes to Rand’s side and turns him over. Anaiyella joins her, yelling about what Bashere and the Asha’man will do to them if he dies. They discuss what will happen, and Anaiyella has her belt knife out.
Bashere arrives, sending his men into the Seanchan ranks as well. He dismounts and calls for Morr. As Morr arrives, Rand sees Ailil surreptitiously sheathe her own belt knife. The arrow is removed and Morr Heals Rand, who manages to get to his feet without help. He is uncertain of the women’s motives in saving him but then possibly considering murdering him. He also realizes there is no way he can seize saidin again.
Weiramon arrives, apologizing for letting the Seanchan through. He thought he saw an advance and went to meet them, leaving his post. Bashere tells Rand that the Seanchan are pulling back, but only he and Gregorin believe that the work is done, and Rand’s forces should pull back too. The rest urge continuing on to Ebou Dar. Bashere strongly advises against it, but Rand is intrigued by the idea. No one will expect him to come for Ebou Dar.
I would not mind you in my head, Lews Therin said, sounding almost sane, if you were not so clearly mad.
Ebou Dar. Rand tightened his hand on the Dragon Scepter, and Lews Therin cackled.
We’ve already had a taste from previous chapters, but Jordan really makes sure in the beginning of Chapter 22 to set us up with a sense of how arrogant Rand is feeling as he prepares to engage the Seanchan. The moment when he regrets giving back the jewels on the sword Aviendha gave him was particularly effective, I thought. It reminded us of the Rand he used to be only three books ago. When Aviendha offered him Laman’s sword, he tries to find a way to be polite, because he thinks it’s a horribly impractical weapon.
Only a buffoon would carry something this gaudy. And that ivory hilt would twist in a hand slippery with sweat or blood.
He later changes his mind when he sees that it’s a heron-marked blade, and realizes that it’s also Power-wrought. He accepts the blade but gives the jeweled scabbard and the hilt back to her, planning to have another, more practical hilt forged for it. But now we find him regretting the choice not to keep the jewels; this Rand wants people to know that he is the Dragon Reborn. This is a far cry from the Rand we used to know. At least he has a good hilt on the thing.
There are other moments in the narration of Chapter 22 that also point out Rand’s overconfidence and hubris. In his internal conversation (if you can call it that) with Lews Therin, he declares that if all the Forsaken came against him, he would make them weep. He seems completely earnest in the thought. As though he didn’t very recently get completely outmaneuvered by Sammael and only managed to defeat him through a combination of luck and the interference of a mysterious stranger. The same mysterious stranger who Rand couldn’t sense channeling saidin and whose use of balefire seems to be the cause of the dizzy spells Rand experiences whenever he seizes saidin. I wonder if that will ever pop back into Rand’s head, or if he’s forgotten about the encounter what with everything else that is going on.
Rand is also dismissive of his followers’ concerns about the size of their army. He thinks that fifty Asha’man is more than enough to face anyone, even an army with the Seanchan’s numbers and damane. Rand also thinks he alone is probably enough—though we won’t see the full culmination of that mistake until we get to Chapter 24 next week.
But it’s not too early to give a tip of the hat to the bit of foreshadowing Jordan slipped into Chapter 21, covered in last week’s read. Lews Therin—clearly recognizing problems in Rand’s plan that Rand himself can’t see—spoke in Rand’s head.
How many have died for my pride? Lews Therin moaned. How many have died for my mistakes?
Rand felt angry at this, and thought that while plenty of people have died for his mistakes, none have died for his pride. I wasn’t sure that was true even then, but it’s certainly going to be true once he ignores the advice of Bashere and pushes on towards Ebou Dar.
Really, it’s so frustrating watching Rand take the bad advice to push on to Ebou Dar. So many more men have died than he planned, Rand himself has nearly been killed twice and can’t seem to manage saidin well at all—he’s either throwing up or losing control of it or both. This is especially dangerous knowing that having saidin snap suddenly out of your grasp can burn you out, or kill you. People around you can die, as well, but Rand doesn’t seem very concerned about it. He notes with relief that it didn’t happen, but he doesn’t change his behavior to accommodate the danger. But even more frustrating is the fact that the idea to push on to Ebou Dar comes from Weiramon, who Rand views as a dangerous idiot. He should know that anything Weiramon suggests is almost definitely a bad idea. But here he is getting swept up in the idea. Taking Gregorin’s pleading as a suggestion. Thinking himself invincible.
Taint madness? Hubris brought on by the position Rand has been thrust into? Bloodlust from anger born both of the taint and of the suffering Rand has been through? Who can say, really. It’s probably some mix of all of these things.
I was also curious about Rand’s panic when learning that Anaiyella and Ailil have heard rumors that he is protective of women. Of course we’ve seen that Rand is very preoccupied with never showing any vulnerability or weakness—and his idea of weakness at this point is even the slightest bit of human feeling or warmth—but I don’t know how he could have expected that this particular rumor wouldn’t be getting around. His fear of spies—which there probably are—is clearly enhanced by taint-induced paranoia, but it’s not like he’s been trying to hide how he feels about killing women. Quite the opposite, in fact. And while Wise Ones and Dragonsworn Aes Sedai aren’t exactly going to be telling everyone they meet about this characteristic of Rand’s, there are plenty of ordinary soldiers and nobles around him most of the time to notice the way he behaved after the Battle of Dumai’s Wells, or to wonder why he tried so hard to spare Colavaere, or even to see how he treats the Aiel maidens. Again, I know he’s not quite in his right mind whenever he’s obsessing about his list, but… did he think he was being subtle? Does he think that ordinary people won’t talk about him unless they’re Darkfriends or White Tower spies?
Well, maybe it’s just the paranoia controlling him. Rand might not be fully engulfed by the dreads, but he’s certainly partially sunk at this point. And a lot more than he realizes.
And yet, as Bashere points out, Rand seems to miss the obvious dangers in favor of his more intense “dreads.” I’ve been feeling about as suspicious of the Asha’man as Rand has, but where he is caught up in individual glares and worrying that they’ll notice his trouble with channeling, I’m wondering what Taim is teaching them, what he’s whispering in their ears in the Black Tower, far from the true Dragon Reborn and his influence. And while he’s worrying about spies noticing that he doesn’t like to kill women, Eagan Padros enlisted in his service and immediately tried to kill him.
I do wonder if Padros was paid, or if he simple hated Rand for his own reasons. Hard to say, and I’m guessing the narrative will never tell us. Even Jordan, with his love of dramatic irony, likes to leave some things a mystery. We still don’t know who killed Asmodean, after all! I’m a little disappointed though—Padros seemed cool, and very much like a Two Rivers man. Rand had already noticed his intelligence and everything.
We get a little bit more of a picture of how the Seanchan see the damane in these chapters, and will get a bit more in Chapter 24. We have seen before that the damane are considered more like animals than like humans in Seanchan culture, which sets them apart from the other types of slaves. The Seanchan have a great deal of complexity in their hierarchical structure, which allows some slaves to be more respected and powerful than some free people, depending on their duties and who they are owned by. The Deathwatch Guard, for example, are da’covale owned by the Empress, and are very powerful as a result.
Despite its intense hierarchy, there is an interesting amount of opportunity for mobility in Seanchan society. Those who perform great service might be raised to the Blood—we see this with Bakuun, who was raised after performing a great service, and with Suroth, who was already of the Blood and was raised higher because of her success in recovering after the Seanchan loss at Falme and Turok’s death. In Chapter 24 we’ll see Miraj observe that she could be raised even higher if she continues to be so successful, and that she could fall back down again or lower if she isn’t. Karede, meanwhile, counts himself very fortunate to have been chosen to be a Deathwatch guard when he could have ended up mucking out stables or serving kaf to some noblewoman. Either way he’s still da’covale, but there is great honor in the position he has, and great power too. Take the chatting Jadranka was doing with the other officers in Chapter 23. He’s speaking to the other officers, not to Karede.
Three of the ten matched Karede’s rank, yet few except the Blood disturbed a man in the blood-red and nearly black green of the Deathwatch Guard. Not that many among the Blood did.
Karede can even kill Jadranka for his mistakes without checking in with anybody, or worrying that he’ll have to justify his actions later to the Seekers.
(Aside: There are ogier da’covale? What? What does that even look like? I have so many questions I need answers for immediately. I will probably not get them for a while.)
But unlike the da’covale, the damane are clearly not considered in the same category as other servants. By virtue of what they are—women who can channel, women born with the spark—they are viewed both as inhuman and as incredibly dangerous to others. We see that even the sul’dam fear women who can channel and are uncollared. We see this particularly in the sul’dam Nerith’s reaction to learning that she is to be turned over to the Aes Sedai.
But Nerith was clearly fond of her damane, Gille. She regards her as a pet, as all the Seanchan do, but from her perspective it seems to be a loving relationship, just as people have different ideas about how pet dogs should be treated (some people think dogs should stay outside the house, others consider them a member of the family in many ways). The sul’dam and damane who were born in Seanchan mostly seem to have this kind of relationship. Those who are not sul’dam don’t seem to understand the fondness that sul’dam have for their damane, however—Bakuun observes that he would never leave his pet wolfhounds unleashed.
This point of view about human beings is abhorrent, of course, but it is interesting to see how the Seanchan cultural perspective plays out for the sul’dam and damane. Rand is right that the damane are prisoners and deserve to be released. However, he has no idea and no context for what these women have been through. Both damane and sul’dam are found and collared/recruited young, so for them this way of existence may be what they have known for most of their lives. It’s not surprising that some sul’dam would develop feelings about the damane they have worked closely with for many years, possibly since they were both teenagers, and especially since the bond created by the a’dam allows the sul’dam to feel so much of what the damane thinks and feels. It’s human nature to feel fondly towards such a connection… it’s also even more deeply abhorrent that they think of their damane as less than human after developing such an interconnected relationship.
It’s not a deep relationship, of course, since one side is not allowed to be a person.
By virtue of having so much of their actions and thoughts controlled, the damane are deprived of much of what makes them human, stunted in emotional growth and intellectual growth by abuse and deprivation. That is what Rand doesn’t see when he tries to free his captured damane. You cannot take a woman who has been a prisoner her whole life, tortured, constrained, and controlled by another in every aspect of her existence, and still expect her to know what to do when that control is suddenly and completely removed. It makes perfect sense that the damane Rand freed panicked and wanted the collar back—makes perfect sense that she was terrified and overwhelmed.
If Rand really wanted to set damane free it would be a long, slow process that would involve a lot of psychological work by women who were willing and able to use the a’dam while they tried to deprogram the enslaved women. It is work that should be done, and hopefully there will be Aes Sedai who will undertake that work, perhaps Yellow sisters. But even then, there might be some damage that is too deep and complete for some damane to come back from, and some kind of compromise between true freedom and their old lives might have to be reached.
It’s a really dark thought. But damane probably don’t really even know how to be people, and they, like every other Seanchan citizen, have been raised with the idea that they are dangerous and less than human. Most will probably believe it, especially since they have little access to free thought, education, or even peace once they have been collared. The only peace or care they get is what their sul’dam offers them, and so of course they want to cultivate that in their lives.
This whole section is really dark, and a painful read in many ways. But it is quite powerful, and I was especially struck with the way Jordan spins out the tale of the battle from different perspectives. We see Rand’s overconfidence, but we also see it from many of the Seanchan battle leaders. We see the cost of having men under your command who aren’t reliable—Weiramon on Rand’s side and Jadranka on the Seanchan’s make the same kind of mistake—and we see the price of ignoring your advisors. In the end Rand succeeds in driving the Seanchan back, but the losses he suffers are terrible, much more than he anticipated, even more than Bashere anticipated. Both sides are also suffering from the mysterious problems with the One Power.
I was very interested in Rand’s reaction to Anaiyella offering to hang Nerith for him. He takes it as an attempt to curry his favor, completely forgetting Anaiyella’s horror over what happened to Aracome. His injuries were clearly a result of damane channeling; Anaiyella’s desire to punish Nerith for that was personal, and she only couched it in terms of doing something for Rand because she had to. He’s the one in charge, the only one who decides who lives and who dies.
Next week we’ll finish up this horrible battle with Chapter 24, and then it’s back to the White Tower to visit with Elaida and Alviarin… and Mesaana. In the meantime, I noticed this lovely detail in the beginning of Chapter 22:
There was no real need to face the direction you intended to Travel, but it always felt askew to Rand otherwise.
I felt like I understood this feeling exactly, despite the fact that Traveling is a made up fantasy thing. Emerging from a gateway facing a different cardinal direction than you were facing before would be like coming up out of the subway and not being sure which direction you’re facing. I’ve always noticed how even if I know in my head where I’m oriented, I kind of have to wait for my body to catch up to the new orientation. It’s the same feeling I get when I’m reading a street map; I need to make sure the direction I’m facing lines up, so if I’m facing west, I need to turn the map so west is at the top.
Just a cool little detail that makes the world feel more real. I love stuff like that.
The Tor.com offices are closed the beginning of next week for the U.S. Labor Day holiday, so I will see you all for the next Reading The Wheel of Time on September 12th. In the meantime, look out for my review of the beginning of the second season of the show, dropping this Friday!
Sylas K Barrett is good at many things, but summarizing succinctly is not one of them. Does this make recaps a challenge at times? Yes. Yes it does. Beware of Chapter 24, she’s a beast.
So much of the bad attitudes and advice comes from those involved being Darkfriends. It’s ironic that the determination not to see Darkfriends everywhere results in failing to realize there are a hell of a lot of them.
There are ogier Deathwatch Guards. But IIRC it’s specified that they are not slaves, and that their relationship with the Empress is unique.
@1 Though since, in this case, evil intent is indistinguishable from stupidity I can’t blame them for not realizing the idiots may be actively sabotaging them.
Correction: it’s da’covale
It really strikes me in this whole sequence how much the Altara campaign probably calls back to Jordan’s service in Vietnam. It’s a slog, there’s hidden enemies everywhere, high casualties, murky objectives and continual shortage of information/intelligence (fog of war). Not to mention hubris and madness.
@1, @3 – Pretty sure there’s a moment coming up, maybe in the next chapter, where Weiramon’s mask slips for a moment, so we’ll see what Sylas says to that.
@2 – Correct, the Ogier “Gardeners” are Deathwatch Guards but are not property; their special arrangement is “between them and the Empress.”
MODS: Sylas transposed some letters a few times… should be da’covale, not do’vocale. Also there’s an incorrect instance of “Seachan” instead of Seanchan.
@4/5 – Those are fixed, thanks!
I always find Rand’s supreme confidence in regards to the Asha’man to be really strange. He makes the explicit argument to Taim at one point that even if the Asha’man end up outnumbering the Aes Sedai, the AS still have decades of training and experience of using the Power, which is a massive advantage. Well, the damane are in a similar position, but perhaps even more dangerous because they’re specifically trained as weapons. They’re almost a synthesis of the White Tower’s experience and training and the Black Tower’s single minded focus on the use of the Power for destruction. So the fact that he’s forgetting this argument that he made only a couple days or weeks before in-universe feels off. Maybe he just thinks the advantages conferred by Traveling makes up for it.
It is also odd, though more in keeping for Rand as a character, that he doesn’t bring more Asha’man to help. After all, this is a great “live fire” exercise, a rare one too, where those men can demonstrate and practice their skills, where Rand can see them do so, and get everyone a little more prepared for what is obviously a great deal of bloodshed and war yet to come. But I guess Rand, not being a ruler or general by nature or training, doesn’t quite have those instincts and goes with a comfortable minimum.
@7 I assume that Rand’s biggest advantage in the Altaran Debacle (I like to think of names for each individual battle in the books, I mean historically battles had names (sometimes two), so I figure they should here too) is that the Seanchan are not yet aware that the Asha’man have such big teeth. It means that they are going to underestimate them, as they do here, until they learn better. Now, I am unsure whether Rand had thought that through and realized why he had an advantage or whether he assumed somehow his half trained Asha’man could beat Damane who were in some cases hundreds of years old.
@@.-@. do’cavole is a dumb slave :D
@@@@@ 8 I don’t think this battle is quite the debacle you make it out to be. In most respects, Rand wins big time here. He achieves basically every single pre-war aim; he drives the Seanchan back from the border of Illian, seriously dents their self-confidence by giving the “Ever Victorious Army” a big black eye, and frankly, doesn’t sustain all that many casualties in the process. He only views it as a failure because (a) he changes his goals halfway through because he gets overconfident, and (b) he loses control of himself and the Power. But tactically and strategically, he gets pretty much everything he wants! Hell, the experience makes the Seanchan that much more cautious in their future expansion, which is honestly a big deal for Rand. You could argue that one of the reasons “his” lands aren’t really touched by the Seanchan from this point onwards is because they’ve got this series of battles in the back of their mind.
@10 Is this the last time Rand goes for human vs human? That seems to make it a success in that it keeps the Seanchan from bothering him.
I know Perrin leads Dragonsworn against the Shaido but the only other actions I can think of are versus Shadowspawn.
Rand definitely kills a very long list of other human beings. However, I think this is the end of the “political” battles in which he’s fighting to assert his authority and status. Obviously a lot of his fights, either one on one or at scale, involve a horrifying amount of civilian casualties (e.g. the attack on the Sun Palace, Natrin’s Barrow, etc).
@12 Yes, I meant army versus army.
Ah, I got so distracted by Ahsoka, I forgot the next season was starting. (I’m still bitter I never got to share my thoughts on the finale because the thread got locked, lol. Granted, it was a rant that was a lot of the same).
So, now I’m wondering if there is fanfic out there about damane/suldam who start to develop a much more ‘serious’ relationship. On one hand, the cultural conditioning that they are literally animals is going to be a really strong taboo, but on the other, I can’t imagine there haven’t been at least some that recognize they are human (as even in story we see some sul’dam start to shift their attitudes).
@14. I doubt it. The affection some feel is more like what one feels for a beloved pet. A sexual relationship would be viewed as bestiality. One can deeply love their dog but be horrified at the idea of having sex with it.
@11 and @13, yes, at least with Rand leading the army. Of course, there are still rebels in Tear and other places at this point that probably clash with his forces. And the Sharans, while quite odd, are human too of course and figure prominently in the Last Battle. But again, not an army led by Rand.
@15 – that’s kind of my thought (given the cultural conditioning) but I bet somebody’s written it anyway, lol.
@15, 17 how would you tag that? Though I suppose someone reading WoT fics would recognize that sul’dam/damane is dead dove territory.
‘[Rand] wished Semirhage would come for him now, right that instant. He would make her weep.‘ Um, Rand, you’ll need to wait a while for that. As for weeping…
Andrewrm@7:
Sadly, in WoT it is mostly strength in OP that matters, rather than experience, skill, clever tactics etc. and Jordan made men much stronger than women as well as able to gain strength incomparably more quickly. Also they can feel women channeling, but not vice versa. Oh, and they more talented than women in the more destructive elements of Fire and Earth too! RJ really stacked the deck in their favor!
Add to that the fact that damane wouldn’t have fought trained saidin users before and also might need direction from sul’dam before they can act and Rand isn’t really all that wrong in his estimation. It would have been even more true if he himself hadn’t been having channeling problems, since he has the second most powerful sa’angrial with him
@20
I don’t 100% agree. Jordan does state that men are more powerful of course, but we never really know how much more so. Characters like Alivia for example are more powerful than most of the men, and as for the other advantages men’s ability to feel the women is both limited and doesn’t really give much direction or information. It’s mentioned that men gain power in fits and bursts but never really states whether that’s faster to my mind, though given what we learn about Egwene’s “forcing” I wonder if that’s more of what’s happening. The main advantage for women of course is forming a circle which the Seanchan by and large can’t do. Even so Rand mostly brings soldiers and dedicated and I always thought that to be very over confident. At best I always thought they were arrogant because of Dumai Wells.
Nigel Redpath @21:
Thanks to Asmodean we do know though – on average men are twice as strong. We also know that at Dumai’s Wells the very first batch of Asha’man had about 2 months of training. Sure, they were forced and sure some few of them died as a result, though not nearly as many as should have if forcing was as dangerous as advertised. But still, they easily overpowered AS with centuries more practice.
Did I forget to mention that men are also better at breaking through shields and can ignore pain and exhaustion while channeling, while sensations are magnified for the women?
Yes, women can initiate circles, but men have to lead in a number of those, most notably in a 1:1 circle, so no true channeling partnership is possible, and in the largest circle of 72?
Rand brought a number of men that he could confidently overpower using Callan’dor. And without his channeling sickness he would have been right about their chances of attacking Ebu Dar.
Honestly, while both Jordan and Sanderson tried to justify the continued use of/importance of conventional armies, it wasn’t really convincing after Dumai’s Wells. Which is why the number of channelers abruptly dropped by a factor of 10 – 20 in the last books without any explanation and they became much less capable than what we see here.
@@@@@ 22 – do you have any sourcing for that fact, that men are on average twice as strong as women? My recollection is that men are generally stronger, but not by some huge amount and obviously not in all cases. Why this is should be so shocking to anyone is crazy – this is no different than in real life, as is pointed out repeatedly.
Honestly, a lot of your complaints seem like you’ve taken your headcanon, dialed it up to 11, and then acted like that’s understood in-universe. Where do we hear that men are better at breaking through shields, or ignoring pain? And the only time I recall men “overpowering” women are in some very specific circumstances – Logain and his vastly larger number of channelers takes the White Tower group by surprise. Rand, for some plot reasons, escapes shielding a couple times. But this idea that the men are meaningfully more powerful than women is just absurd.
And for what it’s worth, the decreasing number of channelers. or focus on it, is extremely well explained. The Asha’man basically consume themselves because of Taim, and the White Tower Aes Sedai are mostly focused on countering the Sharan channelers, which leaves the various armies to fend for themselves. In other words, it’s Rand’s dilemma writ larger, where he could be the single greatest asset for the light, especially if he used Callandor, much as Demandred ends up being for the Shadow, but he has to leave people to fight their own battles.
@22
I mean this totally neutrally. I would also like to hear sources. I’ve read the books god knows how many times, but I definitely am not a person who has passages memorised. I will 100% bow to sources. I love the series and am thankful for the opportunity to hear others thoughts on it because I never had the chance in my friend circle to discuss the series with anyone. I have always had the sense, especially when rereading the series, that Jordan while setting up the facade of the genders being hugely different, with different strengths and inherent abilities/characteristics, is actually largely speaking undercutting this in how his characters actually act and exist. Though of course the main argument for Jordan establishing gendered stereotypes in the one power.
As for the points you raised I would generally say I don’t recall many specific facts that align with what you’ve said about power levels, and as for battles like Dumai Wells, and the Ashamen in general, I would argue that their biggest strength, even the key to their victory there was not in inherent strength but int he fact that they were trained to fight in concert. The strengths of the Aes Sedai are all grounded in individual ability. We never really see them operating, even in the last battle, with the well disciplined concentrated abilities of the Ashamen. Jordan’s descriptions of their essentially fire by rank attacks brings to mind a disparity similar to British line infantry in the colonial fighting in open ground against enemies without firearms, or more likely the sheer bower of American artillery and air support during the Vietnam war, which Jordan would have witnessed first hand. When we see the early successes of the black tower they have every advantage, but in the campaign described here, they seem to be fighting more individually, without proper sightlines, and against an enemy which is partially prepared for them. The Seanchan think they are Aes Sedai, but they are preparing to fight power with power, and they have the experience to back that up.
Sorry very long.
Andrewrm @23:
“If two women link, they do not double their strength – linking is not as simple as adding together the power of each – but if they are strong enough, they can match a man.” Asmodean, “Pale Shadows”, TFoH.
There is also the fact that Cadsuane is famous for being able to capture male channelers by herself and keeping them shielded, even though they are untrained wilders and she was not only the strongest AS in the last millennium before the wonder girls, but also had unique ter’angreal. No other AS could do it. Logain would have been able to break out of Nyn’s shield after she healed him if he had tried, even though she was supposed to be at a big advantage due to being the shielder. Etc, etc.
Rand often remarks on not feeling pain or exhaustion while in the Void and I am surprised that you don’t recall it. Perhaps a re-read is in order before you accuse people of making up head-canons?
Regarding the number of channelers, Taim at some point reports to Rand that he has a thousand recruits in the Black Tower and that he intends to double that number in the near future. Yet there are just a hundred Asha’man on the side of Light in the Last Battle and a couple of dozens on the Dark. Yes, there was infighting in the BT but nothing on the scale of about a thousand or more male channelers dying, as far as we have been told.
Egwene recruited 2 thousands of women channelers with the express intention of using them in the TG and then they inexplicably got shuffled off to Mayenne! And even then it didn’t feel like there were that many working there.
The Aiel also should have contributed at least a thousand or so of channeling Wise Ones, given their numbers and that they find and train every sparker, etc.
Of course, Jordan clearly intended for normal armies to still be important somehow, even though Dumai’s Wells and that incident in KoD where a group of channelers, including Rand, granted, but still, destroyed 200K Trollocs, made it more than difficult to come up with the reasons why. So Sanderson squared the circle by just removing 90 – 95% of all prevously introduced, but nameless channelers from equation. Nothing against him – he was in an impossible situation. But it is a thing that happened.
Nigel Redpath @24:
This is true as far as it goes, even though it Is inexplicable that at least the Greens weren’t trained to fight in concert. But with TG looming, you’d think that it would have been remedied. I mean, if the Asha’man could go from zero to Dumai’s Wells in 2 months, why couldn’t female characters, whose ability to link is even specifically geared towards cooperation? It never made a lick of sense, but was, of course, very much rooted in RJ’s view of the genders.
Ah, so the arrogant Forsaken, who also happens to be a wildly powerful channeler, is now expected to be the final arbiter on relative strength?
And your other two points betray an obvious bias. Cadsuane being able to singlehandedly capture and transport a male channeler is amazing not because of the relative strength issue, but because singlehandedly keeping a person captive over that amount of time is incredibly difficult. And we have no idea whether or not Logain could have broken out of Nynaeve’s shield – she is worried in the moment, which does not mean she was in danger of being overwhelmed. Nynaeve also does not have the ability to touch the Source at will, making it doubly necessary that she get “backup”.
Overall, you’ve taken some extremely tangential accounts and woven them into a tapestry that simply doesn’t make sense. You are going to need some statement by the author about strength, and not just you validating your assumptions with excerpts that don’t actually apply. We know RJs opinion on this; men are generally stronger than women, much like IRL, but it simply cannot be the case that it’s a case of “twice as strong” or else it wouldn’t have been presented as an incremental difference.
Source? Some deaths are expected to happen off screen – that is to be expected. You cannot truly demand that a cast as vast as WoT have every named character wrapped up on screen.
Whether you like it or not, this issue was dealt with on multiple occasions within the text. Mat comments at one point that the damane are engaged with neutralizing the Sharan channelers. Egwene says something similar about the Tower Aes Sedai. The Kin are healers, they don’t know how to use the Power as a weapon, so where else would they be except… behind the lines healing! And the Wise Ones are all at Shayol Ghul, so why in the world would they be anywhere else?
At the end of the day, the obvious authorial intent was that the channelers on the side of the Shadow would cancel out those on the side of the Light, so that we don’t have to hear endless stories about how the magic users are just dominating the battlefield. We hear when someone particularly powerful or important does something, and the rest of the time we are meant to presume it’s similar to the opening phases of Dumai’s Wells; everything cancels out and the little guys fight it out with swords.